Thursday, 28 January 2010

Unequal

Updated to take into account comments by MrRob. I’m glad someone is bothering to pick me up on stuff, to be honest.  Beat’s the shit out of the standard echochamber

This is been  everywhere already, but I’m playing catch-up after this weekend’s blogging inertia:

image

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, ad infinitum: What difference does it make how big the gap is between the highest and the lowest earners, so long as the poorest are getting richer?  Should not the real question be: Are the poorest better off now then they once were?  To compare oneself to the  richest (or anyone else for that matter) is both irrelevant and the politics of envy.   What someone else earns does not affect me in the slightest, beyond perhaps provoking a jealous desire to do better. Didn’t think this statement through;  ‘cause it bloody does, it’s just not entirely relevant to the point I’m trying to make.

An entirely separate question is that of social mobility, i.e. how hard is it to better oneself and become more affluent. Well if you work at it, attain sought-after skills and experience, and given the truly demented dilution of the skills pool these days- it’s relatively simple to do well in modern Britain. In principal, anyway. 

Problem is, the state will fight you every step of the way.   If you are on benefits and out of work to start with, you will be punished for attaining even minimum wage work.  Case in point: relatives of mine are a couple with three young kids, neither of them have any real qualifications, but both have taken minimum wage jobs in retail.  Now the consequence of this conscious decision to not be a burden on the taxpayer is a substantial net loss of income.  They have also had to struggle while jobless friends have more disposable cash and far easier access to better housing.  Labour have done nothing to promote social mobility; they have done plenty to prevent it.

It’s not like it would be particularly hard to implement policy in favour of self-betterment either;  for the same cost of the 2.5% VAT decrease, the government could’ve raised the income tax threshold to 10 grand and taken about 3 million people out of the tax system altogether.   That would have shown some interest in the welfare of the worst off.  But the government has shown that it is more concerned with keeping the client state in their pocket and ruining the prospects of a generation, just so they can retain hold of the reigns for a bit longer.

Anyway, lets look at the damn report(my comments in red):

The report finds:

  1. Parents of public school-educated sons can expect their children to be paid eight per cent more by their mid-20s than boys educated at state schools; Erm, okay.  Public schools are better, being unfettered by the meddlings of politicians. What’s the takeaway lesson here?
  2. At school poor British white boys are well below the national average by the time they are seven, deteriorating further after they are 11.  No hope, no expectation to try, no examples to follow.  Welcome to modern Britain.
  3. Women are paid 21 per cent less than the national average, despite women into their 40s having better qualifications than men;  This is not a surprise. They generally take different career paths and take several years off (on average) to have kids.
  4. Britain has one of the most unequal societies in the world, with income inequality ahead of Ireland, Japan, Spain, Canada, Germany and France. Inequality is worse in England than Wales and Scotland;  Load of wank. This figure means nothing (we might have a load of rich people throwing the trend by living here) and we’re equivalent to the OECD average anyway, see pic. h/t Burning our money
  5. A typical professional on the verge of retiring is worth nearly £1 million compared with just £59,000 for someone who is long-term unemployed.  Not wanting to go all Daily Mail here, but: get a job?
  6. Poverty rates are among the worst in Europe, with only Italy, Spain and Greece faring worse.  What the fuck do they think poverty is? Do please differentiate between RELATIVE and ABSOLUTE poverty.  We don’t have much in the way of shanty towns round these parts. See Tom Harris – who I’m liking more by the day.
  7. Average and below average White British children are less likely than those from minority ethnic groups to go on to higher education.  My original comment here vaguely alluded to ‘ethnics’ having a better work ethic than the ‘natives’.   What I meant to imply was the documented superior academic performance of students of South and South-east Asian descent here and in the US.  Apparently this is due to a greater cultural fear of failure and generally higher aspirations toward academic success.  MrRob rather cynically suggests in the comments that positive discrimination may have a part in this too. Didn’t occur to me, to be honest.  I’m so sheltered.   After further heated analysis in the comments, we have ascertained that this whole statement in the original Telegraph article is almost certainly bollocks and has no factual basis in the published study.  I move that it be struck from the record.
  8. More than half of children educated at private schools, and more than 40 per cent of those with professional parents, go to the top Russell group of universities. Converse of number 2: Those who are guided and have examples to follow will do better. This is not rocket science.
  9. Two-thirds of those with professional parents receive firsts or upper seconds, but only half of those with unskilled parents.  I wonder why?

The socialists have done their damage again. It just remains to be seen whether Blu-Labour can reign back the destructive influence of the state on the lives of the lower tiers of society.  

It is not difficult: all they need to do is less.

21 comments:

John Pickworth said...

"Britain has one of the most unequal societies in the world..."

I'd wager places like Switzerland, Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Singapore and even the USA are much worse. And all of those places are inspirations we should follow if only we had any sense left in this country.

Have to agree with your analysis Mr Slug. Its spot on.

Mr Rob said...

"What someone else earns does not affect me in the slightest, beyond perhaps provoking a jealous desire to do better."

I see. So what other people earn and thus can afford to pay, relative to what you earn and can afford to pay, is entirely irrelevant to you when it come to buying a house is it?

SaltedSlug said...

"I see. So what other people earn and thus can afford to pay, relative to what you earn and can afford to pay, is entirely irrelevant to you when it come to buying a house is it?"

No more relevant than the Ferrari customer is to my purchase of a Ford.

Mr Rob said...

So, for example, if you were a low-paid young farm worker living in Devon, and a lot of high-earning city folk decided to buy second homes in your village, and were willing and able to pay amounts that the vendors could not refuse, thus driving the prices out of your reach, you would consider yourself unaffected by their level of earnings?

SaltedSlug said...

Unless these city boys are kicking him out of his existing home, I can't see how this affects quality of life.
However, I take your point on my sweeping generalisation in that regard.
A stark rich/poor contrast like that in any community is often undesirable; so much better then to allow the less well off to keep as much of their money as possible, rather than the existing tax set-up which leaves next to no disposable income for minimum earners.

Mr Rob said...

Good grief, this is like pulling teeth.

"Unless these city boys are kicking him out of his existing home, I can't see how this affects quality of life."

Well, if he is currently living with his parents, was planning to buy a house in his home village and now cannot, I'd say he was affected.

Before the high-earning incomers arrived, the prices of houses in his village were lower. Now, because of their higher spending power based on their earning more, the prices are higher - what he earns used to be enough to buy, but now is not, as a direct and sole consequence of the market being affected by people with higher incomes relative to him, with whom he now finds himself in competition. It directly affects him in that he has now been priced out of the market. There are a number of courses of action open to him of course, but what someone else earns has directly affected him.

When demand outstrips supply, your absolute earnings are not so important - it is your earnings relative to others that will determine whether you are able to buy things or whether you are outbid. You may have noticed that the absolute amount you need to earn to be considered rich varies dramatically around the world - because it is relative to what others are earning.

What you wrote,

"What someone else earns does not affect me in the slightest, beyond perhaps provoking a jealous desire to do better."

was not just a sweeping generalisation, it was complete bollocks.

SaltedSlug said...

Fair enough. I'm drive-by commenting because I've relatives down, and so you don't have my full attention.
Anyway, I don't think I was entirely comfortable with that statement in the first place and it was irrelevant to my main premise of the importance of relative poverty/social mobility anyway. So yes, what everyone else can afford does in-fact affect me, and so that statement is less than entirely not-bollocks. I'll revise when not viewing by phone.

SaltedSlug said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SaltedSlug said...

Jesus. I concede a point and the blog puts it up twice for emphasis.

Mr Rob said...

As you have been honest enough to concede this point, I will show some restraint...

Perhaps you might care to review:

Average and below average White British children are less likely than those from minority ethnic groups to go on to higher education. "Speaks volumes of the work ethic many minorities bring with them; they respect and aspire to be the hard-working intellectual. Compare and contrast with the native yoof."

You may wish to consider:

Your implicit assumption that those from minority ethnic groups are not themselves third/fourth generation "native yoof", but "brought something with them". From where? Or were you seeking to make some other point by your use of the term "native yoof"?(see how nasty this could have got?)

The possible effects of "affirmative action" or "positive discimination" on the relative results; and indeed the admissions policies of higher education institutions.

Just a thought....

SaltedSlug said...

Fucking hell. This always happens when I go all knee-jerk. I should be a cab driver.

Fine, as soon as my wife stops making me be civilsed, I shall attempt rational translations of my spittle-flecked rant.

SaltedSlug said...

There you go Rob; hope it makes me sound a little bit less Littlejohn.

Mr Rob said...

Average and below average White British children are less likely than those from minority ethnic groups to go on to higher education.
" My original comment here vaguely alluded to ‘ethnics’ having a better work ethic than the ‘natives’. What I meant to imply was the documented superior academic performance of students of South and South-east Asian descent here and in the US. Apparently this is due to a greater cultural fear of failure and generally higher aspirations toward academic success. MrRob rather cynically suggests in the comments that positive discrimination may have a part in this too. Didn’t occur to me, to be honest. I’m so sheltered."

Oh dear. Some people are so clever they just cannot take advice, can they? OK

What you said:

"Speaks volumes of the work ethic many minorities bring with them; they respect and aspire to be the hard-working intellectual. Compare and contrast with the native yoof."

1 Your comments did not vaguely allude to anything, they clearly stated that you thought that those children in Britain classified as being from minority ethnic groups had a work ethic that had been brought from elsewhere, as if such children must have come from another country, or their families had done so recently enough not to have "lost" that by integration. Furthermore you made a distinction between them and "native yoof" - ie that children from minority ethnic groups were not "native". Your mindset is pure BNP mate.

2 Are you now seriously suggesting that the children of South and South East Asian descent, to whom you attribute certain qualities, are now doing so well that they skew the result for all the children of other minority ethnic groups who do not have these qualities? Or has their proportion in this classification dramatically increased?

Given the your attempted explanations, I think my suggesting that decades of affirmative action and the creation of an entire BME industry that ignores children in the same environment who do not qualify as BME might just not be toooooo cynical, eh?

You may well be sheltered. That might account for your misplaced sense of superiority.

And it's Mr Rob to you.

SaltedSlug said...

Oh dear. Some people are so clever they just cannot take advice, can they?

Being this clever is a burden, I have to admit.

Furthermore you made a distinction between them and "native yoof" - ie that children from minority ethnic groups were not "native". Your mindset is pure BNP mate.

Wasn't my intention, and isn't my mindset. Your (deliberate) interpretation as such -however justified due to my communicative laziness- will not keep me up at night.
'Native' was a poorly chosen term to mean long-term residents of the UK -of whatever ethnic origin- who are part of or have (as you suggested I might have meant) fully integrated into a culture where academic achievement (In my not so humble opinion) is not held in such high regard as that of other cultures.

Are you now seriously suggesting that the children of South and South East Asian descent, to whom you attribute certain qualities, are now doing so well that they skew the result for all the children of other minority ethnic groups who do not have these qualities? Or has their proportion in this classification dramatically increased?

Erm, yes?
Kids of South/South-east asian origin do make up greater than half of those considered 'BME' in the UK and do have an established record of academically performing better than both other minorities and their white peers. So I don't find it particularly outrageous to suggest that is why the figures are as they are.

Given the your attempted explanations, I think my suggesting that decades of affirmative action and the creation of an entire BME industry that ignores children in the same environment who do not qualify as BME might just not be toooooo cynical, eh?
And despite my flippant comment, I didn't disagree. It's completely possible that this is -as per your thoroughly researched opinion- so much positive discrimination cherry picking. Noted.

And it's Mr Rob to you.
Get fucked.

Mr Rob said...

"Kids of South/South-east asian origin do make up greater than half of those considered 'BME' in the UK"

well, if by that you mean Asian and Chinese, yes, in the general population

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Expodata/Spreadsheets/D6588.xls

"and do have an established record of academically performing better than both other minorities and their white peers"

nope, utter bollocks. Whereas Indian descent seems to be positive, the reverse is true for Pakistani or Bangladeshi

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/educational_achievement.stm

which combined group size is about equal to the former. Which leaves those of Chinese descent, at just over a mighty 5% of the BME population.

Whatever has been happening, it is certainly not merely a continuation of a historical trend - otherwise no-one would have remarked on it, would they?

That probably didn't occur to you though.....

Mr Rob said...

PS
No need for bad language, unless it makes you feel better, of course.

SaltedSlug said...

Actually, it often does. Meant in the most cordial manner, natch.

And without getting into a stats flinging match with you (I'm doing my very best to write a layman's guide to fusion before midnight for some convoluted reason), do you think those results are completely the product of selection/confirmation bias on the part of the BME crowd or those influenced by them?

Actually, does the report cited even put BME kids ahead overall anyway?

Bollocks to this. Chinese and Indians seem to do better. Everyone else is giving me a headache.

Mr Rob said...

Sorry to interrupt your vital mission re the fusion (that will probably get us both raided later by the spooks from GCHQ), but where did you get the wording for point 7 in your list?

I can't see anything in the report you linked to that could be justifiably used in support of that statement.

Are we arguing about someone's disinformation here?

SaltedSlug said...

Possibly.
I took it from the summary of the report taken from the Telegraph article I cited at the beginning (without reading what I think is the source material until now).

Hmm. That's possibly a bit embarrassing.

So are we arguing about nothing then?

Mr Rob said...

From the report summary:

"White British pupils with GCSE results around or below the national median are less likely to go on to higher education than
those from minority ethnic groups."

No idea how they arrived at that from the data on educational attainment, ethnicity and religion, or whether their findings were statistically significant. The wording is also not quite the same as the Telegraph's "average" British children, is it? If true, it could be down to a range of factors, not least family support and encouragement in this age of student debt, but speculation is futile.

They also report this:

"However, nearly all minority ethnic groups are less likely to be in paid work than White British men and women."

I find that really counter-intuitive, especially re as you mentioned, those of Indian and Chinese descent. I suppose if they were trying they could have lumped men and women together, to handicap a group with an tradition of one parent (usually the woman) not working...who knows, but having looked at the members of the panel, yes we are probably arguing about something a bit on the ficticious side...

Good luck with your Fusion.

SaltedSlug said...

Well thanks anyway.

Considering the next topic I posted on, there is a metric tonne of irony in this.